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Thank you so much, Niki. Sometimes I think the word forgiveness needs a new name. Release, maybe. I think real forgiveness is releasing this person from their hold over you by letting them go. Your forgiveness is simply not caring what they do or what they think anymore. Not holding any resentment anymore. You understand that they did what they did because they were ignorant, or uneducated, or ill, or suffering in some way. It’s really just about acceptance.

Thank you so much for always being here, Niki. 🩷🌈

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There’s an old saying, Don, “The most influential person in your life is the one you refuse to forgive.” I try to keep that in mind always. Thank you for another wonderful essay!

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That is a powerful saying, Paul. Thank for sharing it here. You always point out the wisest stuff, my friend! 💚

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That’s so true! Don, Paul, I love both of your works, so this question for both of you. I forgave someone who used to be a very good friend gone awry (too complex, but I think she might be depressive, I don’t know how else to explain her erratic nasty behavior that was wearing me thin) though I stopped talking with her altogether as I did not have the wits or energy to handle it any more. Though we live close to each other, and our kids go to the same school, we have avoided each other. 5-6 years later, recently, she lands up in the same girls hiking and walking groups I have been part of —knowing fully well a lot of those ladies are good friends of mine—and further, reaches out to my childhood bestie of 45 years who also lives locally “for a casual social call”🤔. It’s pathetic and 🤢. And I hope I don’t lose my friends to her—if I do, they were never my friends:) So my question is, how do you handle a situation wherein you have forgiven someone but they insist on coming back into your life and causing nuisance?

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Paul is a wise man. I’ll give it a go as well, Anu. I’m actually writing another essay on forgiveness because the subject is generating so much interest. Hopefully that will be helpful to you too.

First, I understand how hard it is to be forced to share space with someone you have a hard time with. It’s easy to forgive someone when you don’t have to be around them! Even when you genuinely forgive someone, those painful feelings that you experienced can still arise.

I think that forgiveness is not so much something you grant someone as it is a state of mind. When you truly come to the understanding that all people are just responding to the conditions of their lives, both past and present, it becomes easier to accept them and their behavior.

When you can recognize that your “nemesis“ is actually no different than any of your other associates. The difference is actually in your response, your memories, your feelings. Sure, she still acts the way she always did, she may still be “nasty.“ But it is actually your feelings of emotional resistance that are making things hard for you, not the person.

I know all this sounds idealistic. I am as subject to my feelings as you are. If I had to be around my ex-wife right now, my hands would be shaking, and I would get a stomachache.

But if you can at least try to see the actuality of things, it might help. 1) that this woman is just a human being who actually has no power over you. 2) that it is actually the concepts you hold in your mind, your feelings and beliefs and expectations, that are making it hard to be around this woman.

It’s a difficult practice, to see people as results of their conditioning, rather than as a threat. But I think it’s very helpful!

I wish you the best, Anu.

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Thank you, Don. That’s well put. It’s better to work on ourselves at the end of the day (Rumi), and you are right, we all have our own agonies and have to practice compassion. From that point of view, I am willing to admit and did, that I/my behavior's might be triggering something within her. Either ways, I am and want out of this forever. And, I forgive her.

What I am confused about is practicalities like if we land up at a common gathering, am I supposed to make small talk? If she calls up my friend of 45 years to “small talk”—and my friend did not respond to her, she shared with me in distress—should I overlook? I did, but it’s a mental nuisance. If she inserted herself into a common book club (!), am I supposed to discuss ikigai with her like nothing happened?

The Bhagavad Geeta says you can’t love unless you forgive and I think I have, but I also don’t want to entertain this person in my life by choice. And she is inserting herself into my life via these groups.

I have to learn the art of ignoring and letting the water run off the duck’s back, I guess in addition to forgiving:)

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Yeah, that’s tough. You might have to give her the ol’ “There’s only room in this town for one of us” routine. Or kindly explain to her that you’re not ready for that kind of relationship. But from what you say, she want to respond to that very maturely.

Some things just come down to practicalities, and making the best decision you can in the moment, with the willingness to modify as you go. 🤷‍♀️🤷

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Have you really forgiven her, or have you just pushed her out of your life because you didn't have the "wits or energy" to handle her and called that forgiveness? I don't really know the particulars of your situation, but it appears this person still has some hold on you which indicates to me that there is still work to be done here, perhaps some sort of reconciliation is required.

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That’s a great observation. I pushed her out, I guess, but after this…We met a year after we stopped talking (so we were friends for 4-5 years, fallouts occurred, stopped talking, then this walk a year later) to reconcile, on a walk. I did it meditatively ignoring my husband’s advice to stay away.

The walk resulted in accusations of everything from this to that, including delaying her for Board meeting (!) because I asked her to purchase flowers for a meeting we were supposed to attend (!! I had no recollection!) to the extent that I could not get myself to talk about anything without making her irate on that walk. It hit me then that she might not be stable and has internal issues or I am a bad trigger.

Having a young child to raise, I told her that we could get back together when our kids leave to college and feel differently, but until then, for some reason, I am sorry, it does not seem like you cannot get along with me, something in me is rubbing you off the wrong way, we should just stay apart.

She tried to reach out a few times after that, I politely told her that I was busy and she got the message. After that, I just let it sit and accepted the fact that I really don’t have time in life to associate with anyone but like minded people, and did not have every for negativity. I still feel the same.

It worked till now when she is showing up for walks and hikes in my safe space. I am just handling it one outing at a time. I say hi and then move on with my other friends (they are groups of 10-15). I am hoping my dearest friends see through and don’t have her over for intimate gatherings. I don’t know what else, I am imperfectly perfect—what I call my Substack.

Substack is strange. I barely know you guys but have bared a story here;) Strangely, I trust your wisdom:) Don and you.

Thanks!

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Well, if reconciliation has not brought peace, trust in the strength of your relationships with your dearest friends

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Thank you, Paul, you have put into words, what I am doing. I realize I have no interest in pursuing that friendship any more and am at peace with that.

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Don, thank you for your candor and courage to share this part of your life. What your ex-wife said was uncalled for, and it's clear it had a major effect on you.

Still, you have managed to do introspection and come out of this with mature insight. We are all human, and that means sometimes hurting others and of course being hurt ourselves.

I do believe in forgiveness. It's unhealthy to hold grudges. Yet, sometimes it's healthy to never forget what we've gone through. During my marriage, I worked two jobs while undergoing chemotherapy and radiation simultaneously for cancer while my then-husband refused to work. Definitely a recipe for divorce, which happened soon after I was done with treatments.

While I am done with grudges, I have published essays with my story because it helps me psychologically and may help others in similar situations. My intention is not to hurt him. I don't name names, and he doesn't even know I've written about him. The aim is not to hurt, but to achieve catharsis.

Thank you for a wonderful, insightful gem of an essay.

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You get me, Beth! That is exactly what I do. It's not to begrudge my ex or get people "on my side." I really have let go of the need to be angry. Of course there is still trauma effects. If I had to be around my ex right now, I would be extremely nervous and shaky. Probably get a stomach ache. It's been over 25 years but there is still processing to do. (I have not publicly used the phrase "emotional abuse" but.... there it is).

Thank you so much, Beth. If you want to link one of your stories, please do. I'll read it!

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Thanks much! My article is no longer online but I read it at the beginning of the podcast. Pardon the hoarse throat, due to 20+ years of teaching: https://www.jiosaavn.com/shows/first-comes-cancer-then-comes-divorce-with-beth-gainer/PffxhYXDrfs_

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Thanks, Beth. I bookmarked it and will try to listen to it later. I'm more of a reader than a listener but I really want to hear your story!

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Thanks, Don. I, too, am more of a reader than a listener, so I totally get it.

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The problem with shy guys is they bottle up their feelings which look for an opportunity to explode in another form. Yours was in shouting about your ex being a bad driver. Ask me how I know about these things.

I’m speaking as a former shy guy. I was cured of this a long time ago by a work friend from Belize who was larger than life and spoke with no filter. He asked me why I didn’t do (I cant remember now what it was), and I said I was shy. He blurted out “You’re too old to be shy!” And I was 27 at the time!

My wife and I are blessed with a wonderful relationship of 36 years and if ever anything hurtful was said (which is extremely rare) it’s quickly resolved with clarification and apologies.

Handling and processing one’s emotions is a life long journey and awareness of them is essential. You sound like you’ve made big strides in your journey.

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Thank you so much for your support. Your communicative relationship is the kind I have with my present wife. We talk things out, even if it takes a while. Thanks for being here! 💚

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The tongue can definitely be a destructive force; in many cases, probably changing the entire direction of a young life. We could all benefit from holding our tongues more, and merely attempting to teach by our example.

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One quote I try to remind myself of and live by (as much as I can) is “We have 2 ears and 1 mouth for a reason. Listen twice as much as you speak”.

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Yes, that’s a good one!

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Good for you, Gail! It can be hard to accept that even your worst times need not be regretted because they have contributed to who you are today. Especially when those hard times lasted so long and it seems the time could have been better spent. But when you truly wake up to our wholeness, to a realization that we are a part of something big and eternal, then it no longer feels as if it’s “too late.” And then we can just be happy to open our eyes every day to beauty and life. (sorry if I went off on a tangent there ha ha ha.)

Thanks for being here, Gail! 💚

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Life is a lesson. Keep learning and in doing so everyone around us learns too.

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You said it, Lexie! Thanks for reading and commenting. I appreciate it!

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Tapping into compassion and our shared humanity is what I think our ability to forgive comes from. Finding that understanding allows us to let go of the hurt. The hurt is only hurting us anyway, but it can be really difficult to let it go until you find compassion for the person who hurt you. Sometimes that compassion needs to be directed inward so that we can forgive ourselves.

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So true, Janine, and I think it is understanding that is the most key action. Trying to fully understand the source of one's own suffering and someone else's. It doesn't mean you have to love them or be friends with them! But understanding, which leads to forgiveness, is only going to make you more at peace with yourself and the world around you. And everyone benefits from that!

Thanks, Janine!

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Exactly. Forgiveness is for you, not for them. They won't be affected by your forgiveness but you sure will. Having compassion and understanding enough so that you can let go and release the pain is within your control. That's all we can do, control what we can and surrender the rest.

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This connection you two have made between compassion and forgiveness is powerful. It makes sense that once you see the offense as a byproduct of the pain someone is protecting, a sense of solidarity with your own pain would become fertile ground for forgiveness. Thanks for this dialogue!

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Thanks, Kelly. This subject of forgiveness is a big one, one that inspires so much interest and commentary and questions. I've actually decided to dive deeper and will be publishing another essay on it soon. Thank you so much for taking part, my friend!

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Can't wait for it! I recognize this is a topic I've shied away from. I explored it fictionally in my novel, but I've rarely written about it directly. I'm sure there are some (many!) blind spots here. Thanks for tackling it!

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I can't even cover a corner of it! A book might be called for. Speaking of which, you wrote a book? (I know, I should look at your home page. I will! 🙂)

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It takes a mindful person to talk about this subject so honestly. It’s hard to forgive. My MO was to forgive but then continue to bring it up. I’m evolving and that hasn’t happened for some time now. It was almost like a habit. I always remember what my dad had said, “ If you don’t have something good to say, keep your mouth shut.” Thanks, Don.

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I brought it up in this essay haha! I was honestly aware of that in the writing. If you could only see how much stuff I deleted! 😈

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Jul 3Liked by Don Boivin

That would be ‘Thumber’s Rule’ from the 1942 Disney animated film Bambi -

Thumper: Yes, mama? Mrs. Rabbit: What did your father tell you this morning? Thumper: If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all.

I used that line on my kids when they were young and as they grew up and still occasionally tell it to myself. And yes, all of my kids watched Bambi multiple times back in the days of VCR tapes, but the real reason was because their grandma was one of Disney’s animators that worked on the 1942 film.

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That's very cool!

I can still hear Bambi's voice as he (she?) repeats the precept back to mom. 💚

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Thank you Don! Just a deeply human story told with honesty. Period.

I think our entire world would be in a different place if more humans could do this.

Oh, and forgive. If more humans could forgive, too.

Some believe forgiveness is the highest form of spirituality made real through the embodied kindness of one person to another.

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Thank you so much, Kert. It’s a scary story to tell. And will continue to be, as I process more of this past trauma in the future. And I really appreciate your support. 💚💚

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So well said

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Jul 3Liked by Don Boivin

You are a courageous man to be sharing such personal experiences. Your sharing is a gift that can help me and your other readers learn and grow. Thank you.

I have been thinking about the tremendous power of our words lately. I can remember casual remarks made to me by others and wonder, but will never know, how many things that I have said are remembered by others. This is making me more conscious of what I say. Your quote from Hamlet today is spot on.

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Thank you so much, Susan. I really appreciate your support, especially after making myself vulnerable and having no idea how it's going to be received. Whew! Thank you 🙏💚

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“We are all afraid at some level, and we are all in this together.” ❤️ it’s hard to admit to the fear that’s behind vulnerability and hurt. But the more we can acknowledge it, the less hurt we might spread around. Especially if we remember that we’re in it together.

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So true, Stephanie. Thanks! 💚

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Thank you for writing this, Don. Being a human being isn’t straightforward or easy. I appreciate your essays.

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Thanks, James, that’s really nice of you to say. 🙏

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One of the most healing things I tell myself is "You make sense."

Reminding myself of this allows me to forgive myself for some of the boneheaded decisions I've made in the past.

My observation is the self-forgiveness substantially preceeds the forgiving of others.

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"You make sense." So good. Thank you, Mary!

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Also, I am sorry your ex-wife said that mean thing to you. Several decades ago, I dated a man whose T-shirts did not touch his skin in very many places, he had that much hair. He was the first man I ever...no, that's off topic. Once, before I knew him, he was walking down the sidewalk and a young woman came up to him and said, "I love hairy men. Can I please kiss you?" He said it was very nice.

I am glad your wife appreciates you.

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Your “off-topic” comment made me laugh! Thank you so much, Mary! 🙏💚

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We all do our best, the best we can do, at any given time. But we’re all human with our own flaws - and positive points. Life is interesting, but it’s how we view ourselves that is so important. We’re all worthy of love. When we actually like ourselves, the world becomes an easier place. Sending you heaps of hugs and best wishes and hoping that you find peace of mind in this complex world. Take care dear Don. All the best.

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Thank you so much, Beth. Your kindness and hugs go a long, long way! 💚🩷

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Jul 3Liked by Don Boivin

Thanks Don. My husband and I have hurt each other with words. Sometimes unintentionally sometimes out of frustration. It hurts me to know when I hurt someone else yesterday or 40 years ago. I have been hurt and I have hurt. I try not to hurt. I know what that pain feels like. Most of all I constantly hurt myself with negative self talk. I can do better across the board.

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Thank you, Jane. We can all do better but we are all also perfect just the way we are!

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Jul 3Liked by Don Boivin

Thanks Don

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